>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> I WOULD SAY THE CEASE-FIRE IS ON MASSIVE LIFE SUPPORT.

>> AS TENSIONS WITH IRAN RISE AGAIN, AMERICA'S ALLIES REFUSE TO SUPPORT TRUMP'S WAR OF CHOICE.

MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE CHAIR WOLFGANG ISCHINGER JOINS ME WITH A VIEW FROM EUROPE.

> >> IT'S IMPORTANT WE RECOGNIZE WHAT HAPPENED FOR THE VICTIMS, FOR THEM TO BE BELIEVED.

>> A NEW REPORT SHEDS LIGHT ON A DARK TOPIC, ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL CRIMES COMMITED BY HAMAS ON AND AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

THE LEAD AUTHOR OF THE REPORT COCHAV ELKAYEM- LEVY JOINS THE PROGRAM.

> >> WE HAVE TO REALIZE WHAT'S HAPPENING ELSEWHERE IS HAPPENING ESPECIALLY WHERE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IS ANTI-SEMITISM.

>> JOMANA KARADSHEH IS REPORTING ON ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS ACROSS EUROPE.

> >> THEY ARE CREATING NEW RULES FOR THEMSELVES.

WHICH IS DEEPLY TROUBLING.

>> HARI SREENIVASAN GOES DOWN THE CRYPTO RABBIT HOLE WITH BEN McKENZIE, DIRECTOR OF "EVERYONE IS LYING TO YOU FOR MONEY. "

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND FROM CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

DONALD TRUMP RESPONSES TO IRAN'S COUNTERPROPOSAL SAYING HE IS CONSIDERING RESUMING COMBAT OPERATIONS.

THIS MEANS PRESSURE ON THE WORLD ECONOMY CONTINUES WITH THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ STILL BLOCKED.

PRICES FOR OIL, FERTILIZER AND OTHER KEY COMMODITIES REMAIN HIGH.

THE IRAN CONFLICT MAY BE AMERICA'S AND ISRAEL'S WAR OF CHOICE, BUT THE FALL OUT HITTING EUROPE.

AS THEIR COUNTRIES INVEST BILLIONS TO REBUILD THEIR MILITARY IN THE FACE OF A GROWING RUSSIAN THREAT, EUROPEAN LEADERS FROM GERMANY TO ITALY ARE STANDING UP TO U. S. PRESSURE.

IT'S IN THIS FRAUGHT ATMOSPHERE THAT TRUMP HEADS TO CHINA FOR A SUMMIT WITH PRESIDENT XI.

WOLFGANG ISCHINGER IS CHAIR OF THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

GOOD TO SEE YOU.

ON WHAT CONTINUES TO BE A VERY EVENTFUL FEW MONTHS HERE.

TRUMP HEADING TO CHINA.

HE HASN'T BEEN THERE SINCE 2017.

HE WILL HAVE ELON MUSK, TIM COOK, OTHERS AT HAND TO DISCUSS TRADE DEALS, ARM SALES TO TAIWAN AND ALSO WHAT IS CONCERNING MANY IS THE CASE OF JIMMY LI.

HE IS JAILED, TRUMP HAS BEEN UNEQUIVOCAL ABOUT WHETHER HE WILL PUSH FOR HIS RELEASE.

DONALD TRUMP SAYS, WE'RE DOING GREAT WITH CHINA.

I RESPECT XI A LOT.

I ASK YOU, IS TRUMP DOING GREAT WITH CHINA?

DO YOU BELIEVE XI RESPECTS TRUMP?

>> FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY, I'M EXCITED ABOUT BEING ON YOUR PROGRAM AGAIN.

THESE ARE EXCITING TIMES, RIGHT?

I THINK EVERYBODY THAT I KNOW IN EUROPE HOPES THAT THIS HISTORIC VISIT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP TO CHINA IS GOING TO LEAD TO MEANINGFUL , POSITIVE RESULTS .

I THINK WE 'RE ALL HOPING THERE WILL BE AN OUTCOME THAT WILL PUSH THE IRAN WAR TO AN END, TO A NEGOTIATED END.

AND I WOULD ALSO PERSONALLY HOPE VERY MUCH THAT THE PERSONAL ATMOSPHERE BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS, BETWEEN PRESIDENT TRUMP AND PRESIDENT XI JINPING WILL BE ONE THAT WOULD ALLOW A MEANINGFUL, CONTINUED DISCUSSION.

I UNDERSTAND THAT THESE TWO LEADERS ARE SUPPOSED TO MEET SEVERAL TIMES AGAIN IN THE COURSE OF THIS YEAR.

SO THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT MOMENT IN HISTORY THAT'S COMING UP THIS WEEK.

>> A LOT AT STAKE GLOBALLY.

IF YOU FOLLOW CHINESE STATE MEDIA, THEY ARE SETTING THIS UP TO BE A PRODUCTIVE SUMMIT.

I WANT TO GET TO THE ISSUE OF IRAN, AS YOU MENTIONED.

I'M NOT SURE HOW MUCH YOU BELIEVE CHINA WILL BE CONSEQUENTIAL IN THIS.

WE HEARD WHAT TRUMP BELIEVES ABOUT THE CEASE- FIRE.

HE SAYS, IT'S ON LIFE SUPPORT.

WHAT OPTIONS DOES PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THE UNITED STATES HAVE AT HAND RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO IRAN?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT HE CAN HOPEFULLY TALK TO PRESIDENT XI THAT ENCOURAGE THE CHINESE SIDE TO IN TURN ENCOURAGE THE IRANIAN LEADERS TO COMPROMISE ON THE ONE ISSUE THAT REALLY UNITES US ACROSS THE ATLANTIC, BETWEEN AMERICA AND EUROPE.

NAMELY, TO FIGURE OUT A WAY TO MAKE SURE THAT IRAN WILL NOT PRODUCE A NUCLEAR WEAPON.

LET ME CLEAR UP ONE MISUNDERSTANDING WHICH I HAVE NOTED IN THE DISCUSSIONS ACROSS THE ATLANTIC OF THE LAST PERIOD.

WE IN EUROPE --ESPECIALLY MY OWN COUNTRY, GERMANY, A NON-NUCLEAR COUNTRY, WE ARE AT LEAST AS INTERESTED AS IS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION OR AS IS THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IN MAKING SURE THAT THERE WILL NOT BE AN ADDITIONAL NEW NUCLEAR COUNTRY, A COUNTRY WITH NUCLEAR WEAPONS.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF THESE EFFORTS WILL LEAD TO AN END OF THE IRANIAN MILITARY NUCLEAR AMBITION, WE WILL BE THE HAPPIEST PEOPLE IN EUROPE.

THE IRANIAN BALLISTIC MISSILE DEVELOPMENT, OF COURSE, CANNOT REACH THE CONTINENTAL UNITED STATES.

BUT THEY COULD AT LEAST IN THEORY REACH MOST PARTS OF EUROPE.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE ARE REALLY IN THE LONGER TERM PERSPECTIVE RATHER DIRECTLY AFFECTED IF THERE WERE AN ADDITIONAL NUCLEAR MILITARY POWER IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

>> I CERTAINLY GET THE SHARED INTEREST.

USA SAID, AS YOU SAID, PERHAPS YOU HAVE MORE AT STAKE.

THEY CALL IT CHECKMATE IN IRAN.

THERE WILL BE NO RETURN TO THE STATUS QUO.

NO AMERICAN TRIUMPH THAT WILL OVERCOME THE HARM DONE.

THE STRAIT OF HORMUZ WILL NOT BE OPEN AS IT ONCE WAS.

IRAN EMERGES AS THE KEY PLAYER IN THE REGION AND ONE OF THE KEY PLAYERS IN THE WORLD.

THE ROLES OF CHINA AND RUSSIA ARE STRENGTHENED.

THE ROLE OF THE UNITED STATES SUB STANTIAL LY DIMINISHED.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

WHICH SIDE DO YOU WEIGH IN THERE?

A LOT HAS BEEN MADE CERTAINLY ABOUT THE DEMISE OF THE AMERICAN EMPIRE.

DO YOU THINK THIS IS JUST A MOMENT IN TIME IN HISTORY AND THINGS WILL RIGHT THEMSELVES AGAIN?

>> YOU KNOW, AS A PRACTICING DIPLOMAT, I NEED ALWAYS TO BE ON THE OPTIMISTIC SIDE OF THINGS.

IF YOU ARE A PESSIMIST, YOU CAN'T BE A SUCCESSFUL DIPLOMAT IN PRINCIPLE.

I UNDERSTAND, I APPRECIATE THE CONCERNS EXPRESSED NOT ONLY BY AMERICAN CRITICS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP BUT AROUND THE WORLD THAT THIS IS NOT GOING TO LEAD TO A GOOD RESULT.

QUITE FRANKLY, THE LAST WORD HAS NOT BEEN SPOKEN ON THIS.

THE ONE THING THAT I KNOW IS THAT THE CHINESE SIDE IS, OF COURSE, STRATEGICALLY, FUNDAMENTALLY VERY INTERESTED IN HAVING A PEACEFUL SITUATION IN THE GULF, BECAUSE THEY NEED THE OIL FROM THE GULF REGION.

THEY NEED THE ENERGY.

IT WAS CHINA THAT MANAGED TO ARRANGE FOR A HANDSHAKE A FEW YEARS AGO BETWEEN THE SAUDI AND THE IRANIAN LEADERSHIP.

WHY DID THEY DO THAT?

BECAUSE THEY WANT THIS REGION TO BE AT PEACE.

IN OTHER WORDS, I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS AT LEAST A CHANCE TO GET XI JINPING TO TALK TO THE IRANIANS IN A WAY THAT WOULD LEAD TO A COMPROMISE, TO CONCESSIONS BY THE IRRARE ANIANS AND NOT PROVOKE THE UNITED STATES INTO YET ANOTHER ESCALATION TO USE MILITARY FORCE.

I KNOW THAT THAT IS NOT SOMETHING WHICH THE ARAB NEIGHBORS OF IRAN WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

LET'S HOPE THAT CAN BE AVOIDED.

LET'S HOPE THIS WEEK WILL LEAD TO AN OPENING AND NOT TO A CLOSE OF DIPLOMACY IN THE IRANIAN CASE.

>> LET'S BE REALISTIC.

YOU ARE THE CHAIR OF THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE.

WE DON'T HAVE TO REMIND ANYONE WHAT JD VANCE SAID IN THE SPEECH.

HE RAILED AGAINST EUROPE.

THIS YEAR, THE MUNICH SECURITY CONFERENCE, YOUR REPORT OPENED WITH SUCH A STARK ASSESSMENT SAYING, AND I QUOTE FROM THE REPORT, THAT THE WORLD ENTERED A PERIOD OF WRECKING BALL POLITICS, SWEEPING ESTRUCTION RATHER THAN POLICY CORRECTIONS.

YOU PUT THAT ON THE TABLE.

WHAT IS THIS CONCEPT OF THE WEST?

DO YOU REALLY SEE A SUBSTANTIVE PIVOT AWAY FROM THE UNITED STATES IN EUROPE?

NOT RHETORICAL, A SUBSTANTIVE ONE.

>> NO, REALLY, I DON'T THINK OUR REPORT SHOULD BE MISUNDERSTOOD.

WE ARE BEING OF COURSE -- GERMANS, EUROPEANS, WE ARE TOTALLY WORRIED.

WE'RE IN PANIC ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE RUSSIAN LEADERSHIP STARTED A WAR IN EUROPE AFTER WE HAD DECADES OF NEGOTIATED PEACE IN EUROPE WHERE RUSSIA IS NOW USING MILITARY FORCE TO CHANGE EXISTING BORDERS IN EUROPE.

IN OTHER WORDS, WE HAVE A CATASTROPHIC SITUATION IN EUROPE.

AND WE ARE EXTREMELY INTERESTED IN MAKING SURE THAT THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA WILL STAY WITH US IN TRYING TO KEEP DEFENDING, TO HELP DEFEND UKRAINE AGAINST THIS INVASION AND MAKE SURE THAT UKRAINE SURVIVES AS AN INDEPENDENT COUNTRY.

THAT IS ESSENTIAL TO EUROPEAN SECURITY.

IF THIS TRANSATLANTIC ALLIANCE -- IF NATO IS SUPPOSED TO BE WORTH SOMETHING, THEN HOPEFULLY, AMERICANS WILL AGREE WITH EUROPEANS THAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT RUSSIA UNDERSTANDS THAT THEY CANNOT AND WILL NOT SUCCEED IN DESTROYING THE INDEPENDENT COUNTRY OF UKRAINE.

THIS IS OUR PRIORITY NUMBER ONE.

WE NEED THE UNITED STATES ON OUR SIDE.

THERE HAVE, OF COURSE, BEEN EXPRESSIONS OF QUESTIONS FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WHICH HAVE MADE US EXTREMELY WORRIED.

>> YOU HAVE STAYED ON SIDE THERE.

YOU CONTINUE TO BE OPTIMISTIC.

WE WILL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION, I'M SURE.

> >> NOW A NEW REPORT IS SHEDDING LIGHT ON A DIFFICULT, OFTEN POLITICIZED SUBJECT, SEXUAL CRIMES ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED BY HAMAS ON AND AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

IN THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE STUDY YET, THE CIVIL COMMISSION ON OCTOBER 7th CRIMES AGAINST WOMEN AND CHILDREN, AN INDEPENDENT, NON- GOVERNMENTAL BODY, HAS GATHERED EVIDENCE AND TESTIMONY OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND TORTURE BY HAMAS MILITANTS AND THEIR ALLIES.

ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AROUND OCTOBER 7th WITH CONTROVERSIAL, GIVEN THE CONTRADICTORY REPORTS THAT HAVE EMERGED.

THIS REPORT CALLED SILENCED NO MORE IS INTENDED TO PROVIDE A HIGHER STANDARD OF DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE.

ITS AUTHOR STRESSED THE REPORT DOES NOT DISCRIMINATE.

IT DOCUMENTS ASSAULTS AGAINST VICTIMS OF MULTIPLE RELIGIONS, CHRISTIAN AND MUSLIM AS WELL AS JEWISH.

HAMAS HAS PREVIOUSLY DENIED ALLEGATIONS OF SEXUAL AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE.

MY GUEST COCHAV ELKAYEM-LEVY IS THE LEAD AUTHOR.

A WARNING, BE AWARE THAT WE WILL BE DISCUSSING SENSITIVE, POTENTIALLY TRAUMATIC TOPICS.

COCHAV ELKAYEM-LEVY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOUR REPORT IS ONE OF THE MOST COMPREHENSIVE EFFORTS TO DOCUMENT THE ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7th.

ALSO IN CAPTIVITY, IT LEANS ON PRIOR U. N. FINDINGS, AND THE U. N. COMMISSION OF INQUIRY.

I HAVE TO START WITH YOUR WORDS.

YOU HAVE STATED CHILLINGLY THAT YOU HAVE IN YOUR WORDS LIVED INSIDE THE DARKEST EVIDENCE IMAGINABLE.

WHAT THINK FINDINGS OR EVIDENCE ADDS TO WHAT IS KNOWN?

>> YES, AS YOU SAID, IT WAS I THINK THE HARDEST THING I HAVE DONE IN MY LIFE AND THE HARDEST THING OF ALL OF US, OF THE ENTIRE TEAM THAT HAD TO DOCUMENT AND WATCH THE MATERIALS AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN AND COLLECT EVIDENCE, COLLECT TESTIMONIES.

WHAT WAS THE HARDEST THING?

I THINK THE CAUSING OF PAIN TO FAMILIES.

THE FACT THAT FAMILIES HAD TO WITNESS THEIR LOVED ONES BEING SEXUALLY HUMILIATED, ABUSED.

ONE CASE THAT WE DOCUMENTED IN WHICH TWO FAMILY MEMBERS WERE FORCED TO COMMIT SEXUAL ACTS ON ONE ANOTHER.

>> AS YOU SAID, CHILLING AND HORRIFIC.

IN TERMS OF THE EVIDENCE ITSELF, HOW DO YOU BELIEVE THIS COMPREHENSIVE REPORT WILL ADD TO WHAT IS ON RECORD?

AS YOU SAID, A LOT OF THE EVIDENCE WAS ON VIDEO AND PHOTOGRAPHS.

>> IT'S A 300 PAGES REPORT.

OVER HALF OF IT IS FACTUAL DOCUMENTATION.

IT KIND OF DETAILS IMAGE AFTER IMAGE, VIDEO AVID FTER VIDEO, TESTIMONY AFTER TESTIMONY, THE REPORT AND THE ARCHIVE ALLOWS US TO STEP BACK AND SEE THE HORROR IN ITS ENTIRETY.

I THINK WHAT WE SEE IS THAT THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE WAS A STRATEGY.

IT WAS CALCULATED AND AS A SCHOLAR WE HAVE WITNESSED EXCEPTIONAL CRUELTY.

>> AS YOU SAID, SO DIFFICULT FOR YOU, YOUR INVESTIGATORS AND, OF COURSE THE VICTIMS THEMSELVES AND THEIR FAMILIES.

YOU RELIED HEAVILY ON FORENSIC EVIDENCE.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THAT IN THIS INVESTIGATION AND AS YOU SAID FOR THE RECORD AND FOR THE ARCHIVE?

>> WE RELIED ON VIDEOS, IMAGES, MOST OF THEM THE TERRORISTS THEMSELVES TOOK DURING THE ATTACK.

WE RELIED ON TESTIMONY OF EYEWITNESSES, EAR WITNESSES AND HOSTAGES THAT UNFORTUNATELY RETURNED FROM CAPTIVITY WITH HORRIFIC STORIES OF THE HELL THEY HAVE BEEN THROUGH.

SOME OF THE THINGS THAT WE WEREN'T SURE HOW TO DESCRIBE IS THE PROLONGED SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

THE REALITY OF HELL OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE DAY AFTER DAY.

THERE'S ONE TESTIMONY THAT ONE OF THE HOSTAGES SAYS THAT AFTER SHE WAS RAPED OR AFTER SHE WAS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED, SHE COULDN'T EVEN GO TO SHOWER.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT STAYS WITH HER AND THE FACT THAT SHE BECAME CAPTIVE IN A WAY THAT SHE COULD BE SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AT ANY TIME, AT ANY POINT, KIND OF LEFT A DEEP DEPRESSION ON ALL OF US.

THE FACT THAT MANY OF THE VICTIMS WERE SHOT IN THEIR FACES IN THE GENITAL AREA.

WE SAW SEXUAL TORTURE.

BURNING OF VICTIMS IN THEIR GENITAL AREAS.

I THINK IT'S SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I WANT -- I FEEL THAT WE HAVE TO --THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION IS THAT WE CANNOT PREVENT WHAT WE DON'T KNOW.

I THINK THE REPORT CREATES A BEFORE AND AFTER REALITY IN THE SENSE THAT NOW THAT WE HAVE PUT SUCH A SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENTIARY FOUNDATION, IT SHIFTS THE DEBATE FROM QUESTIONS OF WHETHER THIS HAPPENED TO WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF SUCH ATROCITIES?

I THINK WE WANT TO SEE TERRORIST -- TERROR EXPERTS ENGAGING WITH THE EVIDENCE, NATIONAL SECURITY PROFESSIONALS ENGAGING WITH THIS AND PREVENTING IT.

>> SO MUCH OF YOUR EVIDENCE IS FOR THE RECORD AND BUILDS SOMETHING THAT YOU BELIEVE WILL LEAD TO ACCOUNTABILITY.

SOME OF WHAT IS NEW YOU HAVE EXPLAINED.

IT HAS TO DO WITH THOSE AS WELL IN CAPTIVITY.

SOME OF THAT WE HAVE NOT HEARD.

IN TERMS OF THAT NEW EVIDENCE, HOW SIGNIFICANT DO YOU BELIEVE IT WILL BE?

HEARING FROM THOSE THAT WERE HELD FOR SO LONG OR HELD FOR SUCH A LONG TIME AND DIED, IN FACT, IN CAPTIVITY.

>> IT'S IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT MORE WILL BE REVEALED, MORE HOSTAGES THAT HAVE NOT SPOKEN YET WILL SHARE THEIR STORIES.

SOME OF THEM ONLY SHARED BRIEF ACCOUNTS OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

THEY WERE HELD FOR MANY, MANY MONTHS.

SO I THINK MUCH MORE IS GOING TO BE REVEALED.

IN THAT SENSE, WE OWE THE VICTIMS RECOGNITION.

THE THING THAT IS MOST IMPORTANT FOR US NOW IS THAT THE REPORT WILL BE RECOGNIZED AND ITS FINDING WILL BE RECOGNIZED IN DIFFERENT PARLIAMENTS AROUND THE WORLD, IN CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS, IN A WAY THAT YOU MENTIONED ACCOUNTABILITY, AND I THINK WHAT WE REALIZED IS THAT NO SINGLE PROSECUTION OR LEGAL PROCEEDING CAN REVEAL THE MAGNITUDE OF WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM IN A SIMILAR WAY TO WHAT THE REPORT DOES.

SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE RECOGNIZE WHAT HAPPENED FOR THE VICTIMS, FOR THEM TO BE BELIEVED AND FOR THEM NOT TO HAVE TO GO THROUGH MORE AND MORE PAIN OF RESHARING WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM.

>> YEAH.

WE WILL GET TO THAT POINT.

THAT IS LY RE-TRAUMATIZING WHEN SOME TRY TO DENY THE PAIN AND VIOLENCE AND TORTURE THEY HAVE GONE THROUGH.

YOUR REPORT HIGHLIGHTS THE FACT THAT THIS WAS SYSTEMIC IN NATURE.

IF I CAN READ FROM THE REPORT NOW, THE COMMISSION YOU SAY IDENTIFIED 13 RECURRING PATTERNS OF SEXUAL AND GENDER-BASED VIOLENCE.

IT DEMONSTRATES THE CRIMES WERE NOT ISOLATED ACTS OF BRUTALITY BUT FORMED PART OF A BROADER OPERATIONAL METHOD USED DURING THE ATTACK AND ITS AFTERMATH.

AGAIN, I WANT TO QUOTE YOU, YOUR WORDS ARE THAT THIS WAS NOT CHAOS.

IT WAS A CALCULATED, CRUELLY ORGANIZED PLAN.

WHAT LED YOU TO CONCLUDE THAT?

AND ALSO, WHY DOES IT --WHY IS IT SO IMPORTANT IN TERMS OF FRAMING THIS REPORT?

>> I THINK WHEN YOU IMMERSE YOURSELF IN THE EVIDENCE FOR SO LONG AND YOU HEAR TESTIMONY AFTER TESTIMONY, AND EVEN IF YOU READ THE REPORT, JUST THE FIRST SECTION, THE SECTION THAT GOES THROUGH THE TESTIMONIES LOCATION BY LOCATION, YOU START SEEING THE PATTERNS.

YOU START SEEING THE SIMILARITIES IN THE WAY THAT THE CRIMES S WERE CONDUCTED.

I WANT TO MENTION MEN AND WOMEN WERE SEXUALLY ABUSED, SEXUALLY TORTURED, SEXUALLY HUMILIATED.

IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US TO KIND OF, AGAIN, TAKE A STEP BACK, ZOOM OUT.

AND I THINK IT'S ANOTHER REPORT IN ITSELF, THE SECTION THAT IDENTIFIES 13 PATTERNS OF ABUSE IS ANOTHER SUBSTANTIAL PART OF THE REPORT THAT SHOWS IT WASN'T INCIDENTAL.

THERE IS SIMILARITIES IN THE WAY PEOPLE SHARE WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM, THAT ARE SIMILAR WAY OF INFLICTING SUCH PAIN ON VICTIMS THAT IT KIND OF STRIKES YOU.

>> YET, THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS, UNFORTUNATELY, THERE HAS BEEN DISINFORMATION.

THERE HAS BEEN DENIAL.

AT WHAT POINT DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THIS REPORT CAN TRANSCEND THAT?

THESE HORRIFIC ACTS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND TORTURE HAVE, AS YOU KNOW ALL TOO WELL, BEEN HIGHLY POLITICIZED.

>> I THINK THIS IS IT.

THIS IS IT.

I THINK WE --THE REPORT MAKES A SIGNIFICANT CONTRIBUTION TO MOVE THE DEBATE FROM QUESTIONS OF WHETHER THIS HAPPENED TO WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES OF THESE CRIMES?

WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT IN IT?

THE VICTIMS BELONG TO OVER 52 DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES.

THIS IS AN EVENT WITH SUCH A BROAD INTERNATIONAL IMPACT.

I THINK WHAT'S FAR MORE IMPORTANT IS TO ASK OURSELVES, WHAT ARE WE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?

>> WHEN WE TALK ABOUT WHAT WE ARE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT, I DON'T HAVE TO REMIND YOU THERE ARE ALLEGATIONS IN ISRAEL.

THEY RELATE TO THE ABUSE IN ISRAEL PRISONS AND DETENTION CENTERS.

I WANT TO READ FROM A U. N. REPORT --PARDON ME, SUBMITTED BY ISRAELI NGOs TO THE U. N. I TAKE A QUOTE FROM THAT REPORT SUBMITTED NOVEMBER 2025.

TESTIMONIES TAKEN SINCE OCTOBER 7th PROVIDE ACCOUNTS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND HARASSMENT, SEXUAL HUMILIATION AND SOME OCCASIONS RAPE WITH OBJECTS.

MULTIPLE PALESTINIANS CLASSIFIED AS SECURITY DETAINEES, MALE AND FEMALE, REPORTED INCIDENTS IN WHICH THE ISRAELI PRISON SERVICE BEAT AND HUMILIATED DETAINEES WHILE NAKED, INCLUDING ON THEIR GENITALIA AND THREATENED SEXUAL VIOLENCE AND RAPE.

YOU KNOW ALL TOO WELL HOW DIFFICULT IT IS TO REALLY GET THIS TESTIMONY ON THE RECORD AND THE FACT THAT THOSE ISRAELI NGOs WENT TO GREAT LENGTHS TO GET IT.

HOW IMPORTANT IS IT IN THE TOTALITY OF REALLY TRYING TO GET ACCOUNTABILITY HERE THAT THESE ALLEGATIONS ARE ALSO INVESTIGATED AND THAT THERE IS ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THOSE AS WELL?

>> ALL CASES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY SUCH ALLEGATIONS, MUST BE INVESTIGATED.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR ME TO EMPHASIZE THAT WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT NGO.

A CIVIL SOCIETY ORGANIZATION.

OF COURSE, IT IS IMPORTANT TO INVESTIGATE ALL OF THESE ALLEGATIONS.

WE STAND WITH ALL VICTIMS OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE EVERYWHERE.

WE HAVE HAD THE PRIVILEGE TO MEET VICTIMS FROM ALL AROUND THE WORLD SHARING THEIR STORIES, GETTING STRENGTH FROM ONE ANOTHER.

I THINK THIS IS IT.

THIS IS ABOUT STANDING TOGETHER AGAINST THIS HORRIFIC PHENOMENA.

>> I HAVE TO ASK YOU, HOW ARE THE VICTIMS DOING?

WHAT SUPPORT ARE THEY GETTING?

IT CAN'T BE EASY EVEN FOR YOU AND YOUR INVESTIGATORS TO LOOK THEM IN THE FACE AND SAY THAT THERE WILL BE ACCOUNTABILITY, ESPECIALLY GIVEN THE DISINFORMATION THAT REALLY --AND THE POLITICALIZATION THAT PERSISTED FOR SO MANY YEARS.

>> FIRST OF ALL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ASKING THIS QUESTION.

I THINK THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE WAS ACTUALLY THE EXPOSURE TO THE TRAUMA ON A DAILY BASIS, THE EXPOSURE TO THESE VIOLENT MATERIALS ON A DAILY BASIS.

I THINK WE HAD NO CHOICE.

I WANT TO SAY THAT VERY FEW IN THE WORLD HAVE AGREED TO WITNESS THESE MATERIALS.

I WANT TO RECOGNIZE THE WORK OF THE TEAM --OF THE CIVIL COMMISSION THAT TOOK UPON THEMSELVES TO BEAR WITNESS AND ANALYZE.

WHAT MOTIVATED US WAS THE DENIAL, THE QUESTIONING.

WE WANTED TO ENSURE THE WORLD KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED.

WE OWE IT TO THEM.

WE UNDERSTOOD IF WE WOULDN'T DO IT, NO ONE WILL DO IT.

THAT WAS KIND OF WHAT PUSHED US TO CONTINUE TO DO THIS.

I CAN SAY ON A PERSONAL NOTE THAT WHAT KEPT ME SANE, FIRST OF ALL, IS KNOWING WE'RE GOING TO PUT SUCH AN IMPORTANT PIECE ON THE HISTORICAL RECORD OF THESE CRIMES.

BUT ALSO MY CHILDREN.

I HAVE FOUR CHILDREN.

I FEEL PEOPLE ASK ME HOW DO YOU DO THIS WITH FOUR CHILDREN?

I FEEL WITHOUT THEM, I WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO DO THIS.

IT'S LIKE COMING BACK HOME, SPENDING TIME WITH MY CHILDREN, WITH THE LITTLE ONE, MAKING PUZZLES, IT'S WHAT KEPT ME GOING, KNOWING WE'RE DOING ALSO FOR THEM, FOR THEM TO HAVE A BETTER FUTURE.

YOU ASKED ABOUT THE VICTIMS.

WE MEET SURVIVORS, FORMER HOSTAGES, FAMILIES ON A DAILY BASIS.

AT ONE POINT, YOU KNOW, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE STILL STUCK IN HELL.

THEY CONTINUE TO RELIVE THE TRAUMA, ESPECIALLY SENSE THE ATROCITIES WERE DOCUMENTED IN WAYS THAT MADE FAMILY MEMBERS BEAR WITNESS.

THE SUFFERING OF THE HOSTAGES AS WE NOTE IN THE REPORT WAS FILMED AND SHOWED IN ISRAEL FOR MONTHS.

FAMILIES HAD TO SEE BODIES OF THEIR LOVED ONES.

THEY HAD TO SEE THEIR TORTURE.

THEY HAD TO SEE THEM TAKEN INTO CAPTIVITY.

HAMAS USED THE SOCIAL MEDIA OF THE VICTIMS THEMSELVES TO UPLOAD AND BROADCAST THE VIOLENCE FOR THE WORLD TO SEE, FOR THE FAMILIES TO BE DEVASTATED AT THESE MOMENTS.

THE REPORT OPENS WITH THE QUOTE OF THE MOTHER OF ONE AND HOW HER BODY WAS PARADED INTO GAZA ALMOST NAKED WHILE THE CROWDS ARE SPITTING ON HER BODY.

THE MOMENTS THAT THEY REALIZE --THE FAMILY REALIZED THAT IT WAS HER.

THE SCREAMING OF HER SON.

IT'S THOSE DEVASTATING TESTIMONIES THAT REMIND US HOW DIFFICULT IF EVEN IMPOSSIBLE --IF EVEN POSSIBLE TO RECOVER FROM THESE ATROCITIES.

>> WE THANK YOU FOR COMING IN AND DISCUSSING THE REPORT WITH US.

AS YOU SAID, MORE THAN 300 PAGES THAT WILL BE ENTERED INTO THE RECORD.

DIFFICULT BUT CRUCIAL WORK.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> IF YOU OR SOMEONE YOU KNOW NEEDS HELP IN THE U. S. CALL THE NATIONAL SEXUAL ASSAULT HOTLINE.

AROUND THE WORLD, U. N. WOMEN.

.

> >> TO A CLOSER LOOK AT ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS ACROSS EUROPE.

JOMANA KARADSHEH EXAMINES A NETWORK THAT SOLICITS YOUNG RECRUITS TO ATTACK SYNAGOGUES AND OTHER JEWISH SITES.

>> 17 CLAIMS OF ATTACKS TARGETING MOSTLY JEWISH SITES IN SEVEN WEEKS.

WE HAVE BEEN INVESTIGATING IRAN'S POSSIBLE LINKS TO THESE INCIDENTS.

AN INVESTIGATION THAT HAS LED US TO A STUNNING DISCOVERY OF SOMETHING SO SINISTER, THAT AS WE WILL SHOW YOU IS HAPPENING IN THE OPEN.

>> THEY ARE ASKING ME IF I HAVE ACCESS TO ZIONIST INDIVIDUALS OR ASSETS.

>> IT WAS A MATTER OF TIME THAT ONE OF OUR COMMUNITIES WAS GOING TO COME UNDER ATTACK.

>> WE SAW HIM TAKEN AWAY BY AN AMBULANCE.

>> DAYS AFTER THE WAR IN IRAN BEGAN, FIRE BOMB AND AS SON RSONS BEGAN.

A PREVIOUSLY UNHEARD OF GROUP CALLING ITSELF THE ISLAMIC MOVEMENT OF THE COMPANIONS OF THE RIGHTEOUS CLAIMED THE ATTACKS IN NOT SO SOPHISTICATED VIDEOS AND STATEMENTS.

WE FOUND THE CLAIMS SEEM TO FIRST APPEAR ON THE TELEGRAM CHANNELS THAT ARE ASSOCIATED WITH IRAQI GROUPS.

A SOURCE CLOSE TO THE MOST POWERFUL OF IRAQI PARAMILITARY GROUPS THAT WORKS CLOSELY WITH THE IRGC CONFIRMED TO US ITS LINKS AND TOLD US SOME OF THE MEMBERS ARE IRAQI.

SECURITY EXPERTS BELIEVE THE GROUP IS JUST A FRONT FOR THE IRGC.

BRITISH COUNTERTERRORISM POLICE ARE INVESTIGATING IRAN'S POTENTIAL LINKS TO THE LONDON ATTACKS AND WHETHER THE REGIME MAY BE HIRING CRIMINAL PROXIES TO CARRY THEM OUT, POSSIBLY RECRUITING PEOPLE ONLINE.

WHEN YOU THINK OF ONLINE RECRUITMENT BY FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE SERVICES, YOU MIGHT ASSUME THAT IS HAPPENING IN THE DARK CORNERS OF THE INTERNET.

TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT WE FOUND.

THIS TELEGRAM CHANNEL IN ENGLISH AND HEBREW CALLED VIP EMPLOYMENT SAYS IT IS RECRUITING, HIGH PAID AGENTS.

IT CLAIMS FOR IRANIAN INTELLIGENCE.

IF YOU ARE READY TO TAKE THE NEXT STEP, IT SAYS, HIT THE START BUTTON.

UNDERCOVER, A PRODUCER AND I STARTED TWO SEPARATE CHATS EXCHANGING DIRECT MESSAGES OVER SEVERAL DAYS WITH THESE ACCOUNTS.

>> MY CONVERSATION BEGINS WITH SOMEONE AND THEY ASK QUESTIONS ABOUT MYSELF, TRYING TO GET TO KNOW ME.

THEN THEY ASSIGN ME A TASK.

TWO POSTERS, ANTI-TRUMP, AN ANTI-WAR.

LATER IN THE CONVERSATION, THEY SEEM TO COACH ME ON HOW TO AVOID CCTV CAMERAS.

DO IT IN A PLACE WHERE THERE ARE NO SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS.

AT ONE POINT I QUESTION, HOW CAN I CONFIRM YOU ARE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC INTELLIGENCE?

THEY SAY, THE WORK I ASSIGNED YOU AGAINST THE POLICIES OF THE FILTHY ZIONIST REGIME AND AMERICA.

>> WITH ME, THEY GET STRAIGHT INTO IT.

WHAT ARE MY CAPABILITIES?

WHAT ACTION CAN YOU TAKE AGAINST ZIONIST INDIVIDUALS OR ASSETS?

DO YOU HAVE ACCESS TO SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS OR INFORMATION, THEY ASK?

I ASKED WHAT THEY MEAN BY ACCESS TO SPECIFIC INDIVIDUALS OR INFORMATION.

PEOPLE WHO WORK IN SECURITY AND MILITARY AGENCIES SUCH AS THE ARMY AND THE MOSAD.

I ASK IF THEY ARE ONLY RECRUITING IN ISRAEL.

NO.

WE CAN HIRE ANYONE WHO CAN HARM ISRAELI INTERESTS OR INDIVIDUALS.

WITH THOSE WORDS, WE DECIDED TO END THE CONVERSATION THERE.

OTHERS APPEAR TO HAVE TAKEN THE BAIT.

WE FOUND VIP EMPLOYMENT A CHANNEL WITH THE SAME NAME IS ALLEGED TO HAVE BEEN USED TO RECRUIT ISRAELIS TO SPY FOR IRAN.

REFERENCED IN THIS INDICTMENT AND OTHER OFFICIAL DOCUMENTS.

THE ISRAELI MEN WERE GIVEN INITIATION TASKS SIMILAR TO THE ONE WE WERE GIVEN.

FROM THERE, PROSECUTORS SAY THE MEN WERE TASKED WITH FILMING GOVERNMENT AND MILITARY SITES IN EXCHANGE FOR MONEY.

ONE OF THEM, AN IDF RESERVIST, WAS OFFERED MORE THAN $30,000 TO ASSASSINATE HIS COMMANDER.

WE CAN'T CONFIRM ANY LINKS BETWEEN VIP EMPLOYMENT AND THE RECENT ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS IN EUROPE.

BUT THE ONE THING THEY SEEM TO HAVE IN COMMON IS IRAN.

HERE IN THE UK, THE WAVE OF ATTACKS HAS LEFT A SMALL JEWISH COMMUNITY FEELING MORE VULNERABLE THAN EVER.

ONE OF THE GROUP'S TARGETS IN LONDON, THE KENTON UNITED SYNAGOGUE KED FOR BEING A CENTER OF ZIONIST INFLUENCE AND ITS RABBI A KEY INSTRUMENT OF ZION.

>> THE SMELL.

>> IT'S PUNGENT.

>> SMELLS OF FIRE AFTER.

>> TEN DAYS AFTER AND IT'S PUNGENT.

THEY CAME FROM THE OUTSIDE.

THEY SMASHED THE WINDOW IN.

THEY THREW A FIRE BOMB IN HERE.

YOU CAN SEE THE DAMAGE THAT'S BEEN CAUSED.

>> HOW DID YOU FEEL WHEN YOU WALKED IN AND YOU SAW THIS?

>> I WAS REALLY UPSET, OBVIOUSLY.

IT'S ONLY A MEDICAL ROOM.

WE CAN REPLACE IT.

WE DECORATE IT AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

BUT WHAT COULD HAVE TRANSPIRED, THAT IS REALLY HARD.

>> WITH ANTI-SEMITISM AT RECORD HIGHS WORLDWIDE, RABBI BLACK SAYS IT WAS A SHOCK BUT NOT A SURPRISE.

>> MY BIGGEST CONCERN IS THAT IT HAS TO STOP.

PEOPLE HAVE TO REALIZE WHAT'S HAPPENING ELSEWHERE IS HAPPENING ELSEWHERE.

WHAT'S HAPPENING OVER HERE IS ANTI-SEMITISM.

>> A 17-YEAR- OLD BRITISH NATIONAL PLEADED GUILTY TO ARSON WITHOUT ENDANGERING LIFE.

IN A WRITTEN STATEMENT,' HE APOLOGIZED AND SAID HE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THIS WAS A SYNAGOGUE.

MANY OF THE SUSPECTS HERE AND ELSEWHERE IN EUROPE ARE TEENAGERS.

AUTHORITIES ARE WARNING ANYONE CONSIDERING GETTING INVOLVED IN THESE ATTACKS FOR QUICK CASH, THEY WILL BE, QUOTE, USED ONCE AND THROWN AWAY.

IT SEEMS THESE ATTACKS MAY HAVE ALREADY OPENED THE FLOODGATES, EMBOLDENING OTHERS TO FOLLOW.

ON OUR WAY BACK FROM THE SYNAGOGUE, WE NOTICED A HEAVY POLICE PRESENCE.

WE HEARD THAT PEOPLE HAD BEEN STABBED HERE.

AS WE APPROACHED THE POLICE LINES, WE COULD SEE THE SUSPECT WAS STILL ON THE GROUND SURROUNDED BY THE POLICE.

TO JEWISH MEN WERE STABBED.

FROM THE SHADOWS, THEY CLAIM THE ATTACK WITHOUT PROVIDING EVIDENCE OF INKS TO THE SUSPECT WHO HAS A HISTORY OF MENTAL ILLNESS AND SERIOUS VIOLENCE.

LEAVING SO MANY IN THIS COMMUNITY BRACING FOR EVEN DARKER DAYS AHEAD.

>> JOMANA KARADSHEH THERE.

THE IRANIAN EMBASSY IN LONDON DENIED HAVE ANY LINK WITH OR INVOLVEMENT IN THE LONDON ATTACKS SAYING IN A STATEMENT, SUCH BASELESS ACCUSATIONS AGAINST THE ISLAMIC REPUBLIC OF IRAN LACK CREDIBLE EVIDENCE AND APPEAR TO SERVE NARROW POLITICAL AGENDAS AND TO MISLEAD PUBLIC OPINION AND DISTRACT FROM THE REAL ROOT CAUSES OF TERRORISM AND VIOLENT EXTREMISM.

> >> TO WASHINGTON, WHERE SENATORS WILL CONSIDER A LONG AWAITED BILL THAT COULD HAND THE CRYPTOCURRENCY INDUSTRY A MAJOR REGULATORY WIN.

ACCORDING TO OUR NEXT GUEST, THE CONSEQUENCES COULD BE DEEPLY TROUBLING.

IN A NEW DOCUMENTARY, BEN McKENZIE TAKES A DIVE INTO THE WORLD OF CRYPTO.

HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO EXPLAIN.

>> BEN, WELCOME BACK TO THE PROGRAM.

WE SPOKE A COUPLE YEARS AGO WHEN YOU HAD A BOOK OUT ABOUT CRYPTO CRYPTOCURRENCY.

NOW YOU HAVE A DOCUMENTARY CALLED "EVERYONE IS LYING TO YOU IN MONEY".

>> SURELY I CAN FIGURE OUT THIS CRYPTO STUFF.

>> NO BANKS.

NO FEES.

>> TAKE ALL YOUR MONEY, BUY BITCOIN.

>> I HAD A FEW QUESTIONS.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TOLD ME WAS ONE OF THE MOST PERNICIOUS PARTS OF CRYPTO IT IS EXPLOITED.

ANYTHING CHANGE?

>> THE TRUST HAS LESSENED, I WOULD IMAGINE.

DONALD TRUMP'S EMBRACE OF CRYPTO BEGAN IN THE SPRING AND SUMMER OF '24.

IT'S OUTSIDE OF THE EVENTS THAT THE FILM DOCUMENTS.

BUT IN MANY WAYS, TRUMP'S EMBRACE OF CRYPTO SYMBOLIZES SO MANY OF THE THINGS I WAS TALKING ABOUT IN 2022 AND 2023.

IF MONEY DOESN'T COME FROM THE GOVERNMENT, WHERE DOES IT COME FROM?

THE ANSWER WITH CRYPTO IS CORPORATIONS AND PEOPLE.

DONALD TRUMP, HIS CORPORATION HAS THEIR OWN CRYPTO VENTURES WHICH THEY PROFITED OFF OF IMMENSELY.

IT'S TRUE OF BITCOIN, BY THE WAY.

THE MAJORITY OF BITCOIN ARE MINES BY MULTIBILLION DOLLAR CORPORATIONS.

ONE OF THE PROPERTIES WITH PRIVATIZE ING MONEY IS FRAUD AND MANIPULATION.

HISTORICALLY, THAT'S BEEN TRUE.

WE TRIED IT IN THE 19th CENTURY.

WE ARE --HISTORY IS REPEATING ITSELF WITH ALL OF THESE ENDEAVORS BY THE PRESIDENT AND FAMILY THAT MADE THEM AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF MONEY.

THE ALLEGATION IS THAT --ABOUT ONE OF THE TOP INVESTORS IS THAT HE HAS BEEN DEFRAUDED.

THEY ARE BEING SUED RIGHT NOW.

THE ALLEGATION IS THAT HE DIDN'T ACTUALLY HAVE CONTROL OVER HIS INVESTMENT IN THIS CRYPTO VENTURE BY TRUMP AND HIS FAMILY.

I THINK IN A WAY THE TRUST IN OUR SYSTEM AS CRYPTO SEEPS FURTHER INTO IT, THE TRUST WEAKENS --THAT'S MY FEELING ANYWAY --I'VE BEEN TRAVELING AROUND THE COUNTRY, GOING TO SCREENINGS, DOING Q&A AFTERWARD AND HAVING CONVERSATIONS WITH PEOPLE.

SO MANY PEOPLE KNOW SOMEONE WHO HAS SCAMMED.

FEW FEEL LIKE THEY HAVE BEEN SUPPORTED BY THE ELECTED LEADERS.

FEW HAVE FOUND RESTITUTION FOR THE LOSSES.

IT'S QUITE SAD.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS I FOUND MOST COMPELLING ABOUT YOUR FILM IS YOU TOOK THE TIME, VERY CARINGLY, TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO HAD INVESTED IN DIFFERENT CRYPTOCURRENCIES AND LOST A SIGNIFICANT A. MOUNT OF MONEY.

NOT A SPOILER ALERT.

BUT YOU ASK THEM WHETHER THEY STILL HAVE FAITH.

THEY SAID YES.

IN YOUR CONVERSATIONS WITH THE PEOPLE THAT HAD BEEN SCAMMED, WHY DID THEY STILL BELIEVE?

>> I THINK THAT THEY STILL BELIEVED IN PART BECAUSE IT WAS ALMOST THE MORE YOU INVESTED, THE MORE YOU LOST, THE MORE YOU HAD TO BELIEVE.

IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO PAINFUL TO --IT WOULD HAVE BEEN TOO PAINFUL TO ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE WHOLE THING IS SORT OF A HOUSE OF CARDS.

YOU HEAR IT A LOT.

I WAS INTERVENTING ABOUT INTERVIEWING THE HEAD OF CELSIUS, WHO IS IN JAIL.

MUCH OF THE GUYS LOST MONEY.

CELSIUS, THEY WOULD SAY, CELSIUS WAS A SCAM BUT BITCOIN ISN'T.

THEY HAVE REASONS FOR THAT.

I THINK IN TERMS OF PSYCHOLOGY, SOCIOLOGY OF IT ALL, WE ARE LOOKING AT DYNAMICS.

AMONGST THE 5% TO 6% OF THE POPULATION THAT'S INTO CRYPTO, WE LOOK AT A CULT.

THERE'S A FAMOUS CIOLOGICAL PAPER.

PEOPLE BELIEVE MORE.

IT'S TOO PAINFUL TO BELIEVE OTHERWISE.

>> SAM BANKMAN-FREED.

I HAD A CONVERSATION WITH ALEX OF CELSIUS.

I ASKED HIM HOW MUCH REAL MONEY IS IN CRYPTO.

HE SAID 10% TO 15%.

HE SAIDED THE REST IS SPECULATION.

>> I THINK THE NUMBER OF DOLLARS HAVE NOT CHANGED MASSIVELY BETWEEN THEN AND NOW.

>> PERHAPS THEY HAVE LESSENED.

>> THEY HAVE NOT INCREASED.

I DON'T THINK THEY HAVE DECREASED MASSIVELY, WHICH I THINK LINES UP WITH SOME OF YOUR THOUGHT THAT A LOT OF THIS WAS LEVERAGE -- >> PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT PEOPLE CAN'T GET THEIR MONEY OUT.

IMAGINE THIS IS A REGULATED BANK.

THIS WOULD BE A BIG PROBLEM.

>> THAT WOULD BE A BIG PROBLEM.

>> I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT IN HIS RIGHT MIND MADE HIM THINK HE SHOULD SIT DOWN WITH YOU, MAKING A DOCUMENTARY ABOUT CRYPTOCURRENCY.

THAT'S KIND OF WHAT I WAS SAYING.

A REPORTER WASN'T ASKING HIM THOSE VERY SIMPLE QUESTIONS THAT YOU WERE.

HE JUST DIDN'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO GIVE YOU A DECENT ANSWER.

>> YEAH.

IT WAS PROBABLY THE MOST BIZARRE HOUR OF MY LIFE.

IT WAS REALLY STRANGE.

I DID ASSUME THAT HE WOULD BE ABLE TO ANSWER SOME FUNDAMENTAL QUESTIONS ABOUT CRYPTO, LIKE, FOR EXAMPLE, WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO?

GIVE ME ONE THING IT DOES THAT'S GOOD.

THEY TRIED BITCOIN AS A TOOL AND IT FAILED.

I SAID POLITELY, BOLOGNA.

HE HAD TROUBLE GETTING OFF OF THE TALKING POINT AND COMING UP WITH SOME OTHER JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS INDUSTRY THAT HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY THE HEAD OF.

IT WAS VERY BIZARRE.

I TALKED TO THIS EXPERT ON FRAUD AND PSYCHOLOGY OF FRAUDSTERS WHO WROTE A GREAT BOOK CALLED "LYING FOR MONEY. "

HE EXPLAINED FRAUDSTERS THINK OF THEMSELVES AS LEGITIMATE BUSINESSMEN.

THEY START OUT AS LEGITIMATE BUSINESSMEN.

BERNIE MADOFF.

THEY SORT OF HAVE TO CLING TO THE SELF-PERCEPTION THAT THEY ARE LEGITIMATE IN ORDER TO RATIONALIZE OR JUSTIFY THEIR BEHAVIOR.

IN SOME WAYS, FRAUDSTERS ARE THE ULTIMATE METHOD ACTORS.

THEY HAVE TO BELIEVE THEIR HYPE TO NOT THINK OF THEMSELVES AS LIARS AND THIEVES.

>> THERE'S BEEN SO MUCH REVEALED ABOUT HOW THE FRAUD AT FTX OCCURRED.

IN THE DOCUMENTARY, YOU GO THROUGH AND YOU SHOW THE LINE OF CODE.

EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCE, IF THEY HAVEN'T SEEN IT OR IF THEY WILL SEE IT, WHAT'S HAPPENING THERE?

WHAT WAS LITERALLY ALMOST A TINY SENTENCE THAT CHANGED THE COURSE OF THE SUCCESS OR FAILURE OF THIS?

>> I FIND THAT FASCINATING.

I WENT TO THE COURT CASE AGAINST SAM HERE IN NEW YORK FOR SEVERAL DAYS.

WE WERE ABLE TO SEE DOCUMENTS PRODUCED FOR THAT CASE.

AND THE EVIDENCE AGAINST HIM.

IN SOME WAYS, THE SCAM WAS SO SIMPLE.

IT WAS SO SIMPLE.

TWO LINES OF CODE.

ALL IT DID WAS ALLOW THE TRADING FIRM THAT HE HELD TO BORROW THE ASSETS FROM THE EXCHANGE, FROM THE PEOPLE THAT PUT MONEY ON THE CRYPTO EXCHANGE.

THIS PARTICULAR PHRASE, ALLOW UNDERSCORE NEGATIVE, WHICH I THOUGHT WAS EVOCATIVE OF CRYPTO, ALLOW NEGATIVE.

THAT'S ALL THEY WERE DOING.

THEY WERE BORROWING BUT WITHOUT THEIR CUSTOMS' KNOWLEDGE, THE MONEY TO FUND A TRADING FIRM, WHICH ACTUALLY WAS LOSING MONEY.

THEY WERE VERY BAD AT TRADING.

ANOTHER MISPERCEPTION --I THOUGHT THEY MUST HAVE BEEN MAKING TONS OF MONEY.

IT WAS LOSING MONEY.

THEY HAD TO BORROW TO FILL THE HOLE AND THE LIE GOT BIGGER AND BIGGER AND BIGGER.

I THINK THE WAY THAT SAM AND HIS COLLEAGUES COMMITTED THE FRAUD IS IMPORTANT FOR US TO UNDERSTAND IN THE CONTEXT OF THE STORY OF CRYPTO AND WHY IT'S FALSE.

WHAT CRYPTO SAYS IS WE WILL PLACE THIS HUMAN THING, MONEY, THIS THING THAT HUMANS MADE UP, WITH COMPUTER CODE.

ALL YOU HAVE DO TO DO IS TRUST THE CODE.

YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRUST PEOPLE.

IT'S SO CLEAR WITH SAM THE LIE THERE.

COMPUTER CODE DOESN'T FALL FROM THE SKY.

PEOPLE WRITE COMPUTER CODE.

WHEN YOU TRUST THE CODE, YOU ARE TRUSTING THE PEOPLE THAT WRITE THE CODE.

IN THIS CASE, PEOPLE TRUSTED SAM AND HIS COLLEAGUES.

THEY WERE DECEIVED.

IT ILLUSTRATES THE INTELLECTUAL CRYPTOCURRENCY AT ITS CORE.

YOU CAN'T REPLACE SOMETHING THAT COMES FROM HUMAN BEINGS WITH A FICTIONAL COMPUTER CODE, A CODE DIVORCED FROM HUMAN BEINGS.

>> YOU TOOK A TRIP TO EL SALVADOR TO TAKE A LOOK AT THIS IDEA CALLED BITCOIN CITY PROPOSED BY THE PRESIDENT THERE.

WHAT DID YOU FIND THERE?

>> NOT MUCH.

I FOUND A SLEEPY FISHING VILLAGE.

THE IDEA WAS HE SAID THEY WERE GOING TO MINE BITCOIN FROM A VOLCANO.

THEY WERE GOING TO TAKE THE VOLCANIC ENERGY AND EXTRACT IT AND USE IT TO RUN THIS.

THIS WOULD PRODUCE SUCH WEALTH THAT THEY WOULD HAVE THIS GOLDEN CITY, BITCOIN CITY.

THEY HAD A MODEL FULL OF GOLD.

IT WOULD BE THIS PARADISE IN EASTERN EL SALVADOR, WHICH IS VERY REMOTE.

WE WENT THERE.

THERE WAS NOTHING.

THERE WAS A FISHING VILLAGE.

NO SIGN OF BITCOIN CITY ANYWHERE TO BE FOUND, EXCEPT FOR ONE GUY, ONE GUY FROM ILLINOIS, WHO HAD MOVED THERE WITH THE DREAM THAT SOME DAY THE CITY WOULD MANIFEST.

I THOUGHT THAT WAS TELLING, TOO, THAT THE STORY REALLY ONLY APPEALED TO THIS ONE GUY FROM AMERICA WHO CLEARLY OWNED SOME BITCOIN.

HE WOULDN'T TELL ME HOW MUCH.

HAD MOVED DOWN THERE ON THE HOPE THAT AT SOME POINT THE CITY WOULD MANIFEST.

IT HASN'T.

THE CITY DOESN'T EXIST.

WHAT THEY DID DO IS THEY DISPLACED A COMMUNITY THAT WAS LIVING NEARBY IN ORDER TO BUILD A NEW AIRPORT.

THEY WERE TRYING TO BUILD A NEW AIRPORT.

A VERY STRANGE THING IN A COUNTRY THE SIZE OF EL SALVADOR.

IT'S THE SIZE OF NEW JERSEY.

THEY ALREADY HAVE AN INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT 100 MILES AWAY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT IS ABOUT.

IT LAID BARE, AGAIN, THE FALSITY OF THE WHOLE ENTERPRISE.

THERE IS NO BITCOIN CITY.

THERE WAS NEVER GOING TO BE A BITCOIN CITY.

>> IN THE FILM YOU TESTIFIED IN CONGRESS.

YOU TRIED TO POINT THIS OUT.

I WONDER WHAT YOU THINK NOW OF THE REGULATORY OR DEREGULATORY ENVIRONMENT THAT HAS COME WITH THE MOST RECENT ADMINISTRATION AND THEIR EFFORTS TO, WELL, EMBRACE CRYPTOCURRENCY.

>> IT'S REALLY BAD.

IT'S GOTTEN WORSE, I'M AFRAID.

SORRY TO BE THE BEARER OF BAD NEWS.

THERE'S A BILL THAT IS --SEEMS LIKE IT WILL BE MARKED UP THIS WEEK IN CONGRESS CALLED THE CLARITY ACT THAT WILL ACCOMPLISH WHAT CRYPTO HAS LONG SOUGHT, TO BE UNDER SURVEILLANCE, SUPERVISION OF THE CFTC, COMMODITIES, FUTURES TRADING COMMISSION, TEAD OF THE SEC.

THE CFTC IS SMALLER, WEAKER, REGULATORY AGENCY.

NOT ONLY WOULD THIS PUT THEM UNDER THE CFTC BUT CARVE OUT SPECIAL RULES FOR CRYPTO WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE TO OPERATE OR BE TREATED EVEN LIKE REGULAR COMMODITIES.

THEY ARE NOT TREATED LIKE BANKS, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE MANAGING A LOT OF MONEY AND ARE POTENTIALLY OFFERING INTEREST TO PEOPLE.

FOR PUTTING THEIR MONEY ON THE EXCHANGES.

THEY ARE CREATING A NEW SET OF RULES FOR THEMSELVES, WHICH IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY TROUBLING.

ONE THING WE KNOW ABOUT CRYPTO IS IT'S VERY VOLATILE.

THE PRICE CAN GO UP BUT THE PRICE CAN GO DOWN QUICKLY.

YOU WILL SEE THIS IN THE MOVIE.

THE CRASH OF 2022.

THIS HAS HAPPENED REPEATEDLY.

WHAT HAPPENS IF WE CREATE THESE SPECIAL RULES FOR THEM?

CRYPTO CRASHES AGAIN BUT IT'S MORE MORE TIED IN WITH OUR FINANCIAL SYSTEM.

IN 2022, WHEN I TESTIFIED THAT YEAR, I WARNED IF CRYPTO GOT INTO OUR BANKING SYSTEM, THERE WOULD BE HELL TO PAY.

THREE BANKS FAILED THREE MONTHS LATER ED TO CRYPTO.

WHAT HAPPENS IF IT'S FURTHER TIED AND THERE'S ANOTHER CRASH?

THIS TIME IT CONTRIBUTES TO TAKING DOWN THE WHOLE SYSTEM.

THAT'S MY WORRY IS THAT FIRST OF ALL WE'RE DOING IT FOR NO BENEFIT ON NET TO THE POPULOUS.

ZERO SUM GAIN.

INSIDERS WIN.

SOME PEOPLE WILL WIN.

A SMALL NUMBER OF INSIDERS.

MOST PEOPLE WILL LOSE.

IT'S A NET NEGATIVE FOR SOCIETY.

AND WE RISK INTRODUCING THIS THAT COULD ULTIMATELY CONTRIBUTE TO THE NEXT CRISIS, WHICH IS DEEPLY IRONIC.

IT COULD BE RECREATING IT.

>> RIGHT NOW IN THE PAST YEAR OR MORE, WE HAVE SEEN A LOT OF MAJOR BANKS, PEOPLE WHO DEVELOP MUTUAL FUNDS, COME OUT WITH ETFs FOR THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO INVEST IN CRYPTOCURRENCIES THROUGH A PLACE THAT THEY TRUST A LOT.

WE TRY TO SAY AS CONSUMERS, LISTEN, IF THIS BANK, J P MORGAN OR VANGUARD OR FIDELITY, IF THEY TELL ME THERE'S A VEHICLE THAT HAS A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF UPSIDE POTENTIAL, LET ME PUT A LITTLE BIT IN THERE.

WHAT IS THE END CONSUMER MISSING THERE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, IT'S DEEPLY IRONIC.

CRYPTO IS SUPPOSED TO BE SET UP TO BE IN OPPOSITION TO THE HORRORS OF WALL STREET.

NOW THE CRYPTO INDUSTRY IS LOVING THE FACT THAT WALL STREET IS GETTING IN ON THEIR GAME.

IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO UNDERSTAND THAT --LET'S USE THE ETF.

THE LARGEST BITCOIN ETF IS ISSUED BY BLACK ROCK, MASSIVE FINANCIAL FIRM THAT MANY OF YOUR VIEWERS WOULD BE AWARE OF.

WHAT BLACK ROCK DOES, PUT MONEY INTO THEIR BITCOIN ETF.

THEY TURN TO COIN BASE AND SAY THIS IS REPRESENTING THIS AMOUNT OF BITCOIN.

THEY ARE FACILITATING THE TRADE AND TAKING A TINY PERCENTAGE BUT ON BILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

WALL STREET GETTING INTO THE CRYPTO GAME ISN'T A VALIDATION THERE'S ANYTHING TO IT OTHER THAN MONEY TO BE MADE.

THEY ARE NOT MAKING REAL MONEY.

THEY ARE NOT TAKING A DIRECTIONAL BET ON WHETHER CRYPTO IS GOING UP OR DOWN.

THEY ARE FACILITATING THE GAMBLING.

IT'S NOT REALLY A VALIDATION OF THE --IF ANYTHING, IT SHOULD BE REPUTATION OF THE SUPPOSED PURITY OF CRYPTO.

IF CRYPTO WAS A DECENTRALIZED, DEMOCRATIZED FORM OF MONEY, IS IT BEING ISSUED BY BLACK ROCK?

THAT SEEMS INCONGRUOUS.

I DO WORRY THAT, YOU KNOW, THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THAT IS PASSIVE EXPOSURE TO CRYPTO OR ACTIVE BUT THROUGH ETFs , THIS MARKET HAS GROWN QUITE LARGE.

OVER $100 BILLION.

I WORRY THAT IN A DOWNTURN, THE CRASH, THESE INVESTORS GO TO GET THEIR MONEY OUT, IF ENOUGH ARE GOING TO GET THEIR MONEY OUT, THERE MAY NOT BE ENOUGH BUYERS ON THE OTHER SIDE.

THAT WORRIES ME FOR THE INVESTORS AND FOR THE REST OF US IF THIS CONTRIBUTES TO A GREATER DOWNTURN.

>> ACTOR, AUTHOR, WRITER, PRODUCER, BEN McKENZIE, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANKS.

> >> A VOICE OF EXTRAORDINARY COMPASSION AND RESILIENCE.

REMEMBER THE LIFE OF DR.

EDITH EAGER WHO DIED AT THE AGE OF 98.

SHE WAS 16 WHEN SHE WAS SENT TO AUSCHWITZ.

AGAINST ALL ODDS, SHE SURVIVED.

OUT OF THAT SUFFERING, SHE BUILT A LIFE DEDICATED TO HELPING OTHERS HEAL.

SHE BECAME A RENOWN PSYCHOLOGIST AND BESTSELLING AUTHOR WHOSE WRITING ON TRAUMA, MEMORY AND FORGIVENESS TOUCHED MILLIONS.

A REMARKABLE LIFE AND LEGACY.

> >> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO. "

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW.